...making Linux just a little more fun!
or
taufik soleh [paluxt at yahoo.co.id]
Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:26:00 +0700 (ICT)
bagai mana cara membuka program memakai linux
Mulyadi Santosa [mulyadi.santosa at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:48:09 +0700
Hi...
> bagai mana cara membuka program memakai linux
Please use English as this is an international forum. Anyway, about your question, it really depends on what you mean with "membuka". Do you mean, how to execute the program in Linux? If yes, simply type the program's name in the shell or your X desktop environment "Run" menu. If it isn't on search PATH, then please type a complete path, e.g /usr/local/bin/blah instead of just typing "blah".
But if you mean "membuka" is somekind of interrogating the internal of the program (doing disassembling?) perhaps you need a tool like "hexdump" and/or objdump.
Finally, if the program is Windows based, try to read about Wine and how it can help you to run Windows based program on top of Linux. Do pay attention that not every Windows program works smoothly on Linux.
regards,
Mulyadi
Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]
Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:22:44 -0700
[Snip querent]
Wow, thank you, Mulyadi, for elevating this mailing list to a new height of sophistication. Folks, the querent posed his question in Bahasa Indonesia, and Mulyadi gave a knowledgeable, expert, and friendly Linux solution in English. And we all were here to witness it. ;->
(I'm serious. You've just greatly brightened my day.)
--
Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first
Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers
rick at linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column,
describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:26:14 -0600
Ditto mine. I saw the original email and was hoping that either Mulyadi or Suramya would pick it up - and seeing that response this as I was coming off a grueling day of teaching was a very pleasant experience.
Thank you, Mulyadi!
Mulyadi Santosa [mulyadi.santosa at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:23:57 +0700
Hello.. 
> Ditto mine. I saw the original email and was hoping that either > Mulyadi or Suramya would pick it up - and seeing that response this > as I was coming off a grueling day of teaching was a very pleasant > experience.
Mr Okopnik, Rick, thank you for the comment Actually, I was hoping the original
poster asked that in English, so it could gather more response (
and I bet one of them would be "please elaborate" ) ). So, as native Indonesian speaking
human being, I try to step forward. But please, don't make TAG as
Melayu speaking forum, just keep it as is (English forum).
regards,
Mulyadi
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:23:48 -0600
[laugh] Don't worry; as much as I enjoy learning languages, I don't think that fluency in Melayu is ever going to be a requirement for joining TAG. However, it's nice to know that we can at least recognize and field questions coming from a variety of other languages.
Hmm, this brings up an interesting point. Gang, what languages can we understand here, enough to parse a technical question for a reply in English, or at least to translate well enough that someone else can do so? Let's make a list.
[Mulyadi Santosa] Melayu [Ben Okopnik] Russian Spanish
Who's next?
Steve Brown [steve.stevebrown at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:47:38 +0100
On 19/10/06, Benjamin A. Okopnik <ben at linuxgazette.net> wrote:
> Who's next?
[Steve Brown] English (just) ;-)
Ramon van Alteren [ramon at vanalteren.nl]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:28:14 +0200
Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote:
> [Mulyadi Santosa] > Melayu > > [Ben Okopnik] > Russian > Spanish
[Ramon van Alteren] Dutch German
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:34:13 -0600
On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 03:47:38PM +0100, Steve Brown wrote:
> > [Steve Brown] > English (just) ;-)
Oh... Steve, you don't want to go there - nobody's
selling any tickets back. Is
that "just Bawston" ("pahk the cah by the cahner"), "just Noith
Joisey" ("What's wid youse guys?"), "just Scandasotan" ("Supposin'
a guy was to ask a question here, might could he get an answer?"),
or what?
Steve Brown [steve.stevebrown at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:59:25 +0100
Ah, but I can understand Glaswegian, Geordie, Scouse and Cockney.
Although, Cockney does have the remarkable ability to make my teeth itch. Funny.
I learnt both Glaswegian and Geordie by immersing myself in the local culture - going to the pub and staying there for two weeks at a time. I am amazingly receptive to new languages whilst drunk. I learnt most of the little German I have in a similar manner.
Sadly, I have to get into a similar state to be fluent again, I enter a sort of 'fugue' state on ther narrow border between sentience and insensibility. At that point I can converse with almost anyone. The only real drawback is that when I wake up I lose the ability to talk to anyone for a couple of days. That and a blinding headache.
I hail from Leicester where they swap the terminal 'er' for 'uh' and 'tt' for 'kk' (hence Leicestuh and bokkle).
Despair is a daily companion.
Steve
Thomas Adam [thomas.adam22 at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:06:42 +0100
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:59:25 +0100 "Steve Brown" <steve.stevebrown at gmail.com> wrote:
> I hail from Leicester where they swap the terminal 'er' for 'uh' and
You freely admit to this? Interesting... ;)
sbisbee at bu.edu [sbisbee at bu.edu]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:55:31 -0400
Quoting "Benjamin A. Okopnik" <ben at linuxgazette.net>:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 03:47:38PM +0100, Steve Brown wrote:
>
> Is that "just Bawston" ("pahk the cah by the cahner"), "just
> Noith Joisey" ("What's wid youse guys?"), "just Scandasotan" ("Supposin'
> a guy was to ask a question here, might could he get an answer?"), or
> what?
>
Since you opened that can of worms, all I have to say for myself is...
Wicked pissah. How you doin'? Wuh-stah, MA (spelled Worchester, MA) I pahk my cah in Hahvahd Yahd. I got pulled over by a State Troopah.And then, thanks to my southern friends...
How y'all doin'?
Combined to make...
We goin' to get sum cuhltah 'n sheet.
Ok, so I am not that bad, but y'all would probably find it wicked funny to hear me talk. ;-)
p.s. I can speak some broken German, but probably not at a tech question level. And I doubt anyone will be sending anything in Latin or that I could translate it well anyways. ;-)
-sam
Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:25:10 -0700
Quoting Benjamin A. Okopnik (ben at linuxgazette.net):
> [Mulyadi Santosa] > Melayu
...which I mistook for Bahasa Indonesia[1], but it's probably really, really close. (I'm pretty arrogant in guessing that, being Norwegian-American 'n' all, but it's my best guess, based in part on recent cultural history readings in Jared Diamond's books.) Melayu is the Malay variant spoken as the majority language of Malaysia. Both it and Bahasa Indonesia are in the Malay Austrolonesian family, which also gave us all the Polynesian languages, the native Taiwan dialects, and Malagasy.
> [Ben Okopnik] > Russian > Spanish > > > Who's next?
[Rick Moen] FrenchI can fake some parts of a few other languages, such as Greek, German, Italian, Hebrew, and Arabic -- with moderate degrees of success (adequately to justify parody, anyway: Look up "alt.Shrugged"). Barely a few phrases of Cantonese, though, despite ample opportunity.
-- Cheers, A mosquito cried out in pain: The cause of his sorrow Rick Moen "A chemist has poisoned my brain!" Was para-dichloro rick at linuxmafia.com Diphenyltrichloroethane.
Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:38:36 -0700
Quoting Steve Brown (steve.stevebrown at gmail.com):
> I learnt both Glaswegian and Geordie by immersing myself in the local > culture - going to the pub and staying there for two weeks at a time. > I am amazingly receptive to new languages whilst drunk. I learnt most > of the little German I have in a similar manner.
I can easily imagine Geordie being markedly more comprehensible while drunk. (Ford Prefect: 'It's unpleasantly like being drunk.' Arthur Dent: 'What's so unpleasant about being drunk?' Ford Prefect: 'Ask a glass of water.') Having spent time around Scots helps, such that phrases like 'Dinna fash thyself, lad' no longer seem entirely cryptic.
Knowing that particular phrase, however, caused me considerable confusion in Glasgow, when a waitress reassured me that 'Your fash will be out in a minute.' It took me several minutes to deduce that she was referring to my plate of haddock.
> I hail from Leicester where they swap the terminal 'er' for 'uh' and > 'tt' for 'kk' (hence Leicestuh and bokkle). > > Despair is a daily companion.
Eh, the Midlands are lovely country, and Leicester has all those lovely Victorian buildings and the best Indian cuisine I encountered outside Southwark.
So what if you don't pronounce it properly? ;->
Steve Brown [steve.stevebrown at gmail.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:01:21 +0100
On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 02:38:36PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Knowing that particular phrase, however, caused me considerable > confusion in Glasgow, when a waitress reassured me that 'Your fash > will be out in a minute.' It took me several minutes to deduce > that she was referring to my plate of haddock.
I was once in Scotland for Hogmanay. Inadvertantly, I let slip that I enjoy a glass of whiskey. Asked if I wanted water, I declined - makes it taste funny. Oh, drink your whiskey like a man do you?
That was my last clear recollection for the next four days. Apparently I did quite well, I managed to taste each and every whiskey in the house before I fell off my chair. My friends dad worked in a distillery and collected malt whiskey as a hobby. As did all his friends. To add to the injury I was inflicting on my liver, kidneys and brain I was expected to go 'First Footing' due to my dark hair (now sadly departed), naturally this meant toasting the health of the household with a wee drop of whiskey. The Scots have a marvelous knack for understatement. My friends dad was known to most of the estate, and almost all of them wanted to see the 'wee drunk English laddie'.
I seldom drink now.
> > I hail from Leicester where they swap the terminal 'er' for 'uh' and > > 'tt' for 'kk' (hence Leicestuh and bokkle). > > > > Despair is a daily companion. > > Eh, the Midlands are lovely country, and Leicester has all those lovely > Victorian buildings and the best Indian cuisine I encountered outside > Southwark.
Ah, you can't beat a good curry - it will always beat you.
Kat [kat at linuxgazette.net]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:26:26 -0700
On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 02:25:10PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Benjamin A. Okopnik (ben at linuxgazette.net): > > > [Mulyadi Santosa] > > Melayu > > ...which I mistook for Bahasa Indonesia[1], but it's probably really, > really close. (I'm pretty arrogant in guessing that, being > Norwegian-American 'n' all, but it's my best guess, based in part on > recent cultural history readings in Jared Diamond's books.) Melayu is > the Malay variant spoken as the majority language of Malaysia. Both it > and Bahasa Indonesia are in the Malay Austrolonesian family, which also > gave us all the Polynesian languages, the native Taiwan dialects, and > Malagasy.
I made the same assumption, on my part because I have a lot more exposure to Bahasa Indonesia, while not understanding it.
I am even more thrilled that we had someone who understood Melayu.
> > [Ben Okopnik] > > Russian > > Spanish > > > > > > Who's next?
Ah. I was about to say "I can understand tech French, but don't have the *nix background to answer questions." Given Mr. Moen's superior qualifications, I offer myself as a distant second.
> I can fake some parts of a few other languages, such as Greek, German, > Italian, Hebrew, and Arabic -- with moderate degrees of success > (adequately to justify parody, anyway: Look up "alt.Shrugged"). > Barely a few phrases of Cantonese, though, despite ample opportunity.
My other languages don't really fall into the "fluent in technical versions thereof" category.
Rick Moen [rick at linuxmafia.com]
Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:36:33 -0700
Quoting Steve Brown (steve.stevebrown at gmail.com):
> That was my last clear recollection for the next four days. Apparently I > did quite well, I managed to taste each and every whiskey in the house > before I fell off my chair. My friends dad worked in a distillery and > collected malt whiskey as a hobby. As did all his friends. To add to the > injury I was inflicting on my liver, kidneys and brain I was expected to > go 'First Footing' due to my dark hair (now sadly departed), naturally > this meant toasting the health of the household with a wee drop of > whiskey. The Scots have a marvelous knack for understatement.
Aye, they do, a bit -- and a dry sense of humour recognisably akin to my own Scandinavian cultural antecedents. I felt right at home.
Locally here in California (or 'KAH-lee-fohrn-ya' as Der Gubernator says), we had a popular radio announcer named Bill Moen (no relation), who used to display that sort of arid wit, every morning. I remember one of his anecdotes -- which, alas, is best told out loud, so you'll have to work with me on the required homonym:
A fellow is released from San Francisco County Jail in San Bruno, realises he's flat broke, and starts walking through the suburbs seeking to earn a bit of spending money. Reaching the affluent town of Hillsborough, he notices a matron trimming roses in her front yard, and says, 'Ma'am, I'm looking to do some light work. Do you have any yard or maintenance jobs that need doing?' She tips her hat, sizes him up, thinks for a moment, and nods, pointing:
'If you walk down the driveway next to the garage, you'll find a couple of cans of green housepaint, and a brush. If you can paint the porch by lunch time, there's $50 in it for you.' 'Ma'am, you got yourself a deal.'
Half an hour later, she's surprised to see him walking back. 'Is there a problem?' 'No, ma'am; the job's all done. But I have to tell you; that's no Porsche, that's a Ferrari.'
--
Cheers, Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel
Rick Moen sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor
rick at linuxmafia.com blink. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are
yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Kapil Hari Paranjape [kapil at imsc.res.in]
Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:23:35 +0530
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Ramon van Alteren wrote:
> > [Ramon van Alteren] > Dutch > German
[Kapil Hari Paranjape] Hindi Marathi Bengali (though there will be those who will dispute this) English Indlish and its various dialects(!) like Hinglish, Bonglish and Tamlishand also
Mathematics (Physicists claim that it is only a language!)
I should have stopped here but ...
[ A long rant on the difficulty of typing Indian languages (and Mathematics) by e-mail follows: ]
The problem I have with Indian language support on computers is the number of complicated issues that are tangled up:
1. There was an attempt by Avinash Chopade with "itrans" to provide a uniform way of converting the languages to/from ascii encoding but this has not been universally adopted as it is not easy to read.
2. The Indian type-writer style keyboard is WYSIWYG and a number of people are still being trained in it. This means that letters are sometimes entered in the (logically) wrong order (see 4).
3. There are still some numerous character encodings floating around without standardisation. Unicode is not uniformly adopted.
4. We have to deal with multi-byte, multi-width characters that have "ligatures" or single glyphs associated with a sequence of characters. In these glyphs the identifiable portion the characters may appear "out of sequence".
Strangely, there is a similar problem---typing mathematics by e-mail. TeX/LaTeX is the "itrans" style solution which is applicable for producing printed documents but too heavy for e-mail.
People (naturally) have created a hack^H^H^H^Hsolution.
Mathematicians type e-mails in "pseudo-Tex" and Indians type e-mails in "pseudo-itrans".
Like so:
So you see that Wiles and Taylor finally managed to prove that
x^n+y^n=z^n has no solutions in positive integers unless xyz=0
or n=2.
Or more esoteric:
The variety Spec k[x,y]/(y^2-x^3-ax-b) is an affine elliptic
curve with one point at infinity.
And so:
ab shAyad Ap is ko padh sakate hain. |
(the '|' denotes end of sentence in Hindi so the '.' has a
different significance!)
Because of these all issues I immensely admire those who work on
Indian language support on computers---from a distance . Even if they are getting a paid well
(for example if they work for MicroSoft) they are actually doing
work of importance to large numbers of people; so they are getting
paid a pittance per head.
salAm,
Kapil. --
Mulyadi Santosa [mulyadi.santosa at gmail.com]
Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:31:00 +0700
Hello Mr Okopnik
> [Mulyadi Santosa] > Melayu
Actually, bahasa Indonesia is a "subset" of Melayu. Indonesian itself is composed from many different regional language such as Javanese, Betawi, Balinese, maduranese and so on. Besides that, we adopt foreign language such as Arabian, English, Indian , Netherlands (possibly many more).
So for example, if I met Malaysian and she/he talks using
Melayu, there is a chance she/he uses some words that I don't
understand, or vice versa. But for common words such as "makan",
"tidur", "bekerja" etc, we are all agree about that
regards,
Mulyadi
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:53:42 -0600
On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 01:55:31PM -0400, sbisbee at bu.edu wrote:
> > And then, thanks to my southern friends... > > How y'all doin'? > > Combined to make... > > We goin' to get sum cuhltah 'n sheet.
Heh. "...and shit" is a suffix that Kat and I glue onto random sentences when we want to imply local (as in northern Floridian), erm, culture [1]. It is also often preceded by "It's all romantic..."; we use this to underscore the difference between the popular view and the reality of living on a boat. Many of the people on land see the pretty boat with the bedsheet thingies on the big stick - that's all romantic and shit.
This tends to come up when we're, say, buying sand at Home Depot so we can sandblast a rusted area on deck, or struggling to raise a leaking dinghy that's got 200 lbs. of water in it onto the deck for repairs.
Mind you, the sum total of living aboard is pretty damn wonderful - but it's far, far away from the picture painted by the movies. We get to play with dolphins and manatees and see some gorgeous sunrises; in exchange, we get to work twice as hard as the average people on land. As the old joke goes, "it's a living."
[1] Look, if it can appply to bacteria...
> Ok, so I am not that bad, but y'all would probably find it wicked funny > to hear me talk. ;-)
At least you didn't say "all y'all".
> p.s. I can speak some broken German, but probably not at a tech > question level. And I doubt anyone will be sending anything in Latin or > that I could translate it well anyways. ;-)
Impossibilium nulla obligatio est.
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:19:31 -0600
On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 05:31:00PM +0700, Mulyadi Santosa wrote:
> Hello Mr Okopnik
Hi, Mulyadi! (I prefer to go by 'Ben', actually.
> > [Mulyadi Santosa] > > Melayu > > Actually, bahasa Indonesia is a "subset" of Melayu. Indonesian itself is > composed from many different regional language such as Javanese, > Betawi, Balinese, maduranese and so on. Besides that, we adopt foreign > language such as Arabian, English, Indian , Netherlands (possibly many > more).
Wow, an archipelago full of linguists. Well, it was already on the sailing itinerary anyway...
> So for example, if I met Malaysian and she/he talks using Melayu, there > is a chance she/he uses some words that I don't understand, or vice > versa. But for common words such as "makan", "tidur", "bekerja" etc, we > are all agree about that
The only Melayu that comes to my mind is "tidak apa-apa" and "orang-utan" (I've always thought that "man of the jungle" is a great description.)
[sigh] I wish that life was long enough to learn all human languages, and that our brains could accomodate them.
Ramon van Alteren [ramon at vanalteren.nl]
Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:37:01 +0200
Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote:
> [sigh] I wish that life was long enough to learn all human languages, > and that our brains could accomodate them.
I'd settle for learning how to communicate adequately .... That's hard enough as it is.
It takes at least learning one language other than your native language and trying to express yourself in it beyond the usual "Can I get something to eat" basics, to get a feel for how difficult communicating actually is.
Half your expressions and intentions are communicated by gesture and the non-verbal part of your communication without ever needing any natural language at all.
hence flame-wars in solely natural language communictions ;-)
Grtz Ramon
Jimmy ORegan [jimregan at tlen.pl]
Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:39:20 +0100
Steve Brown wrote:
> I was once in Scotland for Hogmanay. Inadvertantly, I let slip that I > enjoy a glass of whiskey. Asked if I wanted water, I declined - makes it > taste funny. Oh, drink your whiskey like a man do you? >
Oh dear... Scottish and Irish cultures are quite similar, especially when it comes to whiskey... I think I know where this is going to go...
> That was my last clear recollection for the next four days. Apparently I > did quite well, I managed to taste each and every whiskey in the house > before I fell off my chair. My friends dad worked in a distillery and > collected malt whiskey as a hobby. As did all his friends. To add to the > injury I was inflicting on my liver, kidneys and brain I was expected to > go 'First Footing' due to my dark hair (now sadly departed), naturally > this meant toasting the health of the household with a wee drop of > whiskey. The Scots have a marvelous knack for understatement. My friends > dad was known to most of the estate, and almost all of them wanted to > see the 'wee drunk English laddie'. >
Yeah, roughly where I thought it was going to go
The Polish drinking culture is somewhat similar, substituting
vodka for whiskey. Should you ever find yourself in that situation,
ask if it's vodka, or spiritus[1]. It won't get you out of drinking
yourself half to death, but... at least you'll know
> I seldom drink now. >
Is the memory enough to earn you a visit from the hangover fairy? :D
[1] Polish moonshine. Mixed half and half with water, it's like a very strong vodka. Exhale when you swallow, and you just might live.
Jimmy ORegan [jimregan at tlen.pl]
Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:39:03 +0100
[Apologies for the late reply]
Steve Brown wrote:
> > Ah,but I can understand Glaswegian, Geordie, Scouse and Cockney. > > Although, Cockney does have the remarkable ability to make my teeth itch. Funny. >
No, not really -- they're just trying to distance themselves
from your tongue, in case you try to speak in that manner
> I learnt both Glaswegian and Geordie by immersing myself in the local > culture - going to the pub and staying there for two weeks at a time. > I am amazingly receptive to new languages whilst drunk. I learnt most > of the little German I have in a similar manner. >
Heh. I've spent almost 2 years learning Polish that way
I can swear like a trooper,
but I still don't know the names of all the months!
> Sadly, I have to get into a similar state to be fluent again, I enter > a sort of 'fugue' state on ther narrow border between sentience and > insensibility. At that point I can converse with almost anyone. The > only real drawback is that when I wake up I lose the ability to talk > to anyone for a couple of days. That and a blinding headache. >
Well... "drunk" is a universal language. I made friends in
Spain, though I spoke almost no Spanish and they spoke almost no
English, just by... well, being drunk. Same in Poland -- though I
knew enough Polish to get by in shops, train stations, and the
like, I knew nowhere near enough to have a proper conversation... I
think it was Ben who summed it up here before: "gibberish *is*"
Steve Brown [steve.stevebrown at gmail.com]
Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:38:42 +0100
On Mon, Oct 23, 2006 at 11:39:20PM +0100, Jimmy O'Regan wrote:
> The Polish drinking culture is somewhat similar, substituting vodka for > whiskey. Should you ever find yourself in that situation, ask if it's > vodka, or spiritus[1]. It won't get you out of drinking yourself half to > death, but... at least you'll know
Just so you can have a ready answer for "What's your poison"?
> Is the memory enough to earn you a visit from the hangover fairy? :D
I was told that it would put hairs on my chest. The trouble is that now the roots are growing out of my back.
> [1] Polish moonshine. Mixed half and half with water, it's like a very > strong vodka. Exhale when you swallow, and you just might live.
Inhale and you might combust?
Jimmy ORegan [jimregan at tlen.pl]
Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:57:46 +0100
Steve Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2006 at 11:39:20PM +0100, Jimmy O'Regan wrote: >> The Polish drinking culture is somewhat similar, substituting vodka for >> whiskey. Should you ever find yourself in that situation, ask if it's >> vodka, or spiritus[1]. It won't get you out of drinking yourself half to >> death, but... at least you'll know
> >> Is the memory enough to earn you a visit from the hangover fairy? :D > > I was told that it would put hairs on my chest. The trouble is that now > the roots are growing out of my back. >
... and it's so time consuming to have to brush your chest in
the morning
Isn't it funny, though, how they say chest, when they really mean tongue?
> >> [1] Polish moonshine. Mixed half and half with water, it's like a very >> strong vodka. Exhale when you swallow, and you just might live. > > Inhale and you might combust? >
Erm... Well, I wouldn't drink it near any naked flames. Really, it's because so much of the alcohol evaporates in your throat.
Predrag Ivanovic [predivan at ptt.yu]
Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:27:52 +0100
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:23:48 -0600 Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote:
> > Who's next?
[Me] Serbian Croatian Bosnian (or whatever its called these days)These are basically same language
I'll always regret not learning Hungarian and German, since
these are languages of my grandparents. Pedja
--
`Here, sanity ... niiiiiice sanity, come to daddy ... okay, that's a
good sanity ... {*THWONK!*} Got the bastard.'
--AdB
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:17:48 -0500
On Sun, Oct 22, 2006 at 01:37:01PM +0200, Ramon van Alteren wrote:
> Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > [sigh] I wish that life was long enough to learn all human languages, > > and that our brains could accomodate them. > > I'd settle for learning how to communicate adequately .... > That's hard enough as it is. > > It takes at least learning one language other than your native language > and trying to express yourself in it beyond the usual "Can I get > something to eat" basics, to get a feel for how difficult communicating > actually is.
[ I saved this because it's a topic that fascinates me and always has. I'm a real fan of good communication, and continually try to refine my ability and knowledge of it. ]
Y'know, that's a funny thing. I think that the ability to communicate isn't really about a given language _per se_; it's somewhat orthogonal to the language you're speaking, although some languages make it easier to relate certain concepts. Even more importantly, cultures that use a given language play into how it's used.
A really good communicator should be able to get a point across - perhaps with some loss of nuance, but the majority of it intact - by hand signals (assuming the other party is willing to try.) Knowing the other person's language - and perhaps more importantly, their specific idiom - is a huge plus, but lacking it is not a total disaster. I've sailed into a number of places where I knew very little about the country and the people (guidebooks don't tell you much as compared to personal experience), but invariably, shortly after landing, I'd be engaged in something resembling a conversation - with lots of laughter on both sides, plenty of pointing at things, and always some good and useful result.
> Half your expressions and intentions are communicated by gesture and the > non-verbal part of your communication without ever needing any natural > language at all.
[Nod] Some of those signals can vary drastically, but there's a
general set that's pretty common. A smile is recognized pretty much
everywhere; so is a questioning look coupled with a "raise the
bottle" motion.
> hence flame-wars in solely natural language communictions ;-)
...and among linguists.
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Fri, 3 Nov 2006 11:28:16 -0500
On Sun, Oct 29, 2006 at 06:27:52PM +0100, Predrag Ivanovic wrote:
> [Me] > > Serbian > Croatian > Bosnian (or whatever its called these days) > These are basically same language
Cool. If someone wanders in speaking something unusual, and I
recognize it as one of the above, I'll send'em your way.
> I'll always regret not learning Hungarian and German, since these are > languages of my grandparents.
Ah, missed opportunities. I picked up just enough Yiddish from my father to understand the general topic of conversation, but not enough to participate - but that was many years ago, and other than the popular phrases in general usage, I've pretty much lost all of it.
Although I do find my experience with Spanish (apparently forgotten to the point of not recalling how to say "hello", back up to full strength after three weeks in the Dominican Republic) highly encouraging. It's all still in there, somewhere.
> `Here, sanity ... niiiiiice sanity, come to daddy ... okay, that's a
> good sanity ... {*THWONK!*} Got the bastard.'
> --AdB
ADB is indeed enough to make you lose your sanity. Chasing it is optional, and requires a perception of value in the chased object that I completely lack [mad grin].
http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mansec?1+adb
http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~vijay/solaris/solartune.html
Jimmy ORegan [joregan at gmail.com]
Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:37:34 +0000
On 19/10/06, Benjamin A. Okopnik <ben at linuxgazette.net> wrote:
> Who's next?
[Jimmy O'Regan] Polish(Possibly Slovakian too - a lot of the words are similar).
I originally skipped this, because I wasn't sure about the
'technical question' part, but a few days ago I had to talk my Dad
through converting video and burning it to DVD with a Polish
version of Nero (I set Window's primary language on his computer to
Polish to read something a friend had sent me, and forgot to switch
it back. Whoops!), so I think I can manage
Oh, and subject to the availablility of a dictionary, I can probably manage French and German. (And Irish, but I have difficulty imagining there being much call for it)
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:13:26 -0500
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 05:37:34PM +0000, Jimmy O'Regan wrote:
> > [Jimmy O'Regan] > Polish > > (Possibly Slovakian too - a lot of the words are similar).
Is that the Slovensko or the Slovenija variety?
> Oh, and subject to the availablility of a dictionary, I can probably > manage French and German. (And Irish, but I have difficulty imagining > there being much call for it)
Don't sell yourself short, Jimmy. There's plenty of blarney in
here.
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Mon, 6 Nov 2006 23:00:40 -0500
[ Whoops - you appear to have dropped TAG from the CC list. I'm assuming that was accidental, since you didn't mark it as "private", so I've added it back in. ]
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 10:04:45AM +0100, Ramon van Alteren wrote:
> Benjamin A. Okopnik wrote: > > > >Y'know, that's a funny thing. I think that the ability to communicate > >isn't really about a given language _per se_; it's somewhat orthogonal > >to the language you're speaking, although some languages make it easier > >to relate certain concepts. Even more importantly, cultures that use a > >given language play into how it's used. > > Neither do I, "good" communicating has very little to do with the actual > language you are doing it in. > You can both talk the same language and not get your point across.
Yep. I've seen people in violent agreement give up in disgust and walk away cursing each other because neither of them could express the point well enough. Wars have started over less.
There is definitely a critical path to good communication, with a number of possible SPoFs; however, running the gauntlet can often be worthwhile.
> OTOH the difficulty with discussions about communicating is that you > always do (communicate). Even not sending mail back on this subject > would in some way be communicating about it. It might communicate > disinterest for example.
Possibly - but only if someone makes an unwarranted assumption. The other person might be busy, or their computer might have gone boom (I mean, they could be using Wind0ws...), their fingers might have been mangled by a feral VCR, their ISP might have shut down, they might be too stunned by your brilliant rhetoric and need some time to recover... there's just no way to tell.
> I have a friend who I've seen order the most delicious meals in foreign > countries whilst speaking dutch and dutch only.
[waves hand] Except it wasn't in Dutch. I have ordered many
things in foreign countries where I didn't speak the local language
- e.g., northern Florida when I first got here - and I've rarely been disappointed.
Waiters everywhere understand the "lots of enthusiastic hand
gestures" language.
> Apparently he is able to > communicate his love for good food to the cook. The interesting part of > watching him do that is that both parties actually speak quite a lot in > their own language to each other. In the end they seem to reach some > kind of agreement and food is served
I met a Swiss couple in the Virgin Islands, Jean-Loupe and Denise, whom my gf and I had helped out of a bad spot (towed them out of the main ship channel - their sails were blown out by a gale, and their engine had just quit.) About a week later, when we were all sitting in their cockpit and talking, J-L and I noticed the two women staring at us in fascination - it seems that we had been talking a high-speed mix of English, French, Spanish, and German (mostly English and Spanish on my side, French and German on his, and ~10% crossover) - and we understood each other just fine, while they had not the slightest clue of what the hell we were saying. That was an amusing moment.
> I've read and have been told that chinese people have well over 12 > different smiles, some of which express contempt or embarrassment. [No > personal experience]
No idea - although many similar things I've heard about other languages (fifty Eskimo words for snow, five (or seven or twelve) ways to say 'thank you' in Japanese all of which convey different degreed of resentment, etc.) have all turned out to be false. It sounds like an urban legend, particularly since smiles are highly individual anyway.
> Be aware of the spanish, they have the strange habit to make a nodding > movement with their head which means no.My favorite is the Korean hand gesture for "come closer"; the palm-up beckoning motion is used only for animals, while humans get the palm-down version with a quick whisk-broom action.
Jimmy ORegan [joregan at gmail.com]
Tue, 7 Nov 2006 11:32:18 +0000
On 07/11/06, Benjamin A. Okopnik <ben at linuxgazette.net> wrote:
> Waiters everywhere understand the "lots of enthusiastic > hand gestures" language. >
Waiters, and bartenders
> I met a Swiss couple in the Virgin Islands, Jean-Loupe and Denise, whom > my gf and I had helped out of a bad spot (towed them out of the main > ship channel - their sails were blown out by a gale, and their engine > had just quit.) About a week later, when we were all sitting in their > cockpit and talking, J-L and I noticed the two women staring at us in > fascination - it seems that we had been talking a high-speed mix of > English, French, Spanish, and German (mostly English and Spanish on my > side, French and German on his, and ~10% crossover) - and we understood > each other just fine, while they had not the slightest clue of what the > hell we were saying. That was an amusing moment. >
Heh. With those of my Polish friends who speak better English
than Polish, I normally speak only in English; with those who don't
speak nearly as much English as I do Polish, I speak with only in
Polish; the part that baffles my Irish friends, though, is when I
speak to people who speak English at roughly the same level as I do
Polish - I speak in English, they in Polish
Though I did have a similar, 4 language conversation once - at
6am at work, with a Russian truck driver who was working for a
German company. In a bastard mix of English, Russian, Polish, and
German, I managed to teach him enough English to be able to do his
job without as much reliance on hand gestures (Oh, and he'd originally only wanted
to ask for a cigarette
Jimmy ORegan [joregan at gmail.com]
Tue, 7 Nov 2006 11:41:09 +0000
On 03/11/06, Benjamin A. Okopnik <ben at linuxgazette.net> wrote:
> Is that the Slovensko or the Slovenija variety? >
Um... Slovensko, I think. Slovenija would be Slovenian, which is quite different. Pedja would probably have an easier time with Slovenian than I would.
> Don't sell yourself short, Jimmy. There's plenty of blarney in here.
Yeah, but most of our querents don't start off by telling a (seemingly) unrelated story...
Jimmy ORegan [joregan at gmail.com]
Tue, 7 Nov 2006 11:35:18 +0000
On 07/11/06, Jimmy O'Regan <joregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> Heh. With those of my Polish friends who speak better English than > Polish,
"better English than my Polish". So's not to miscommunicate
jorge xxxxx [kaeosdonk at gmail.com]
Wed, 8 Nov 2006 13:13:32 +0100
2006/10/19, Ramon van Alteren <ramon at vanalteren.nl>:
> [Ramon van Alteren] > Dutch > German >
[Jorge Gubía] Spanish Basque
Ramanathan Muthaiah [rus.cahimb at gmail.com]
Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:23:47 +0530
[Ramanathan] Tamil English
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:07:35 -0500
On Wed, Nov 08, 2006 at 01:13:32PM +0100, jorge xxxxx wrote:
> [Jorge Gubía] > Spanish > Basque
[blink] This is very cool - we've got people falling out of the rafters. ¿Como estas, Jorge? ¿Llevas mucho tiempo aquí?
[ "How are you, Jorge? Have you been here long?" - unless my 5-years-out-of-practice Spanish has deserted me, that is. As for Basque, all I can do after "Kaixo!" is smile and wave my hands expressively. ]
Please tell us about yourself; if you feel like hanging around and contributing to TAG, it would be nice to know who you are. This offer also extends to anyone else who's been quietly perched in the rafters; not a requirement, but it would be nice to know that all you folks are here and willing to help.
Suramya Tomar [security at suramya.com]
Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:58:52 -0500
[Suramya Tomar] English Hindi
I can also understand Gujarati and Marwadi [Spoken in some parts of Rajasthan, India] but can't speak them well enough (Though both are sufficiently close enough to Hindi that I can make myself understood with a lot of pointing and gesturing)
I learnt these two languages mainly by osmosis over the years from my roommates by listening to them talk with their family/friends.
jorge xxxxx [kaeosdonk at gmail.com]
Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:07:38 +0100
2006/11/8, Benjamin A. Okopnik <ben at linuxgazette.net>:
> Please tell us about yourself; if you feel like hanging around and > contributing to TAG, it would be nice to know who you are. This offer > also extends to anyone else who's been quietly perched in the rafters; > not a requirement, but it would be nice to know that all you folks are > here and willing to help. >
I'm from basque country and just shamed that you do more euskera than I can with russian I'm quite unplugged from the net and only get to connect from time to time so I always seem to catch the thread time after I can help with anything but I'm interested in the shadow commands, options and posibilities that often came up between the comments
Benjamin A. Okopnik [ben at linuxgazette.net]
Sun, 12 Nov 2006 12:51:31 -0500
On Fri, Nov 10, 2006 at 07:07:38PM +0100, jorge xxxxx wrote:
> > I'm from basque country and just shamed that you do more euskera than > I can with russian
I guess I should be ashamed once per each language that I don't
speak, then. I suggest that
we both skip the 'ashamed' idea and just enjoy what we've got while
learning more.
> I'm quite unplugged from the net and only get to connect from time to > time so I always seem to catch the thread time after I can help with > anything but I'm interested in the shadow commands, options and > posibilities that often came up between the comments
I'm not really sure what that describes... but welcome, anyway. There are many threads that go on for a while, and always a question or two that may not get answered because we don't have anyone who knows about that specific issue. Delays in answering are not a big deal - having someone who knows yet another piece of Linux is.